| Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Sun, 30 March 2008 20:24  |
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Greetings there Folks.
As one who at times can be a technocrat, I tend to be exacting as to details. And I attempt to educate, part of what comes with being a minister. (I do not know if that is supposed to be minister white a capital “T”) As example, I continuously inform people that there are a huge number of “Americans” about, especially to my Canadian cohorts. There is North, Central and South America which means all those that reside from the Magellan Straights south of South America (if indeed anyone is able to live there) to parts of the Artic Circle are Americans, as well as those in Cuba ands other island land masses.
With this in mind, I desire education as to what the proper terms and definitions are concerning those that live in and around the British Isles. I do not, for instance know if those that reside in say Ireland or Scotland are considered “British” and I care to be exacting with regards to the use of these terms. The reasons are is that I am composing an essay which in part has to due with the “American Revolution” which led to the formation of the USA. And, in the interest of promoting more accuracy concerning misconceptions about that part of History (and giving my ministerial certificate exercise) the reason for that revolution in the first place was not due to “taxation without representation” but because King George ordered the colonies and therefore colonists to be disarmed. I also care to thank a host of those here at SHQ, Gradad among them that gave me background in British politics surrounding the circumstances leading to that event. Gosh, one is able to learn so much here at SHQ!
With that said, a grand and great day to all. I look forward to any enlightenment.
Fine Regards,
Dworkin
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Mon, 31 March 2008 11:11  |
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Hi, who is (or wishes to be considered) British is a surprisingly complex story that I really don't have time to go into in detail.
Personally, I'm quite happy to be British first and English second, but then I'm not in the least nationalistic & am probably in the minority.
Many English, Scots, Northern Irish and Welsh would probably prefer to be called English, Scot, Irish or Welsh rather than British.
The Republic of Ireland (Southern Ireland) is part of the British Isles geographically, but is a completely self-administering
state.
Regarding the war of Independance, I was under the impression that it was partly to do with England not wanting America to have its own currency, and effectively lending its own currency to America (which was therefore always going to be in debt to the English
banks). If this is incorrect, I'd be interested to know.
Melmoth
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Mon, 31 March 2008 13:44 |
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One can be both British and Scottish, English, Welsh or Irish. One can also be Irish and not British. The relationships are layered and entangled.
I guess in much the same way that one can be Californian or Texan and a citizen of the US of A.
Constitutionally, the UK contains a number of devolved parliaments or assemblies. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have some form of representative body with responsibility more or less for domestic matters.
At a basic level one is British if one is a citizen of the UK which is made up of England, Scotland, Wales and (currently) six of the counties of Ulster, aka Nothern Ireland. Culturally and nationally the definition is a bit fuzzier.
It wasn’t unusual for pre-war Australians to refer to themselves as British. Similarly I’m sure many residents of the 13 colonies considered themselves British before, during and perhaps after the revolution.
In terms of citizenship, I am British (I can vote in UK). I am also Scottish (I can vote in elections in Scotland (although you don’t have to be British to vote in Scottish elections, you just have to live in Scotland)
As for what nationality you are well a lot depends on context. I’m Scottish when watching rugby; British when discussing foreign relations. If I were ever to join the army I’d be in the British army but in a Scottish Regiment.
There are separate sports teams for England, Scotland, Wales, Northern and Southern Ireland for almost all sports.
A lot of people are touchy about automatically being branded British. Many more are ambivalent. Almost all Scots would describe themselves as Scottish, some would go on to describe themselves as British too. For some being Scottish is a sub-division of being British, for some it’s more like being a Scottish Brit, an additional flavour to their Britishness.
You are more likely to “insult” a Scot, Welshman or Irishman by calling them British than by calling them Scottish ect. The English tend often view the terms English and British as interchangeable more often so you’ll probably not cause offence referring to an Englishman as either. If in doubt ask.
Not sure how this helps you with your essay. I think that in 1776 most people were busy being British. It was new and exciting to be British then.
Dan
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Tue, 01 April 2008 00:06 |
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Dworkin ——
I’ll have to double-check our Revolutionary history, but if my memory serves me correctly, and after a very quick glance at Wikipedia, in regards to: “the reason for that revolution in the first place” ... I believe that the thirteen American Colonies rejection of Great Britain’s attempted implementation of ‘The Stamp Act’ [1765]; a tax on all papers bought and sold in the Colonies, (which caused quite an uproar throughout the Colonies, and was later repealed by Great Britain, after several letters, petitions, solicitations and even visits to the British Parliament by none other than Benjamin Franklin), and then ‘The Boston Massacre' [date?] ... both pre-dated ‘The Boston Tea Party’ [1773] episode — as well as — any order by King George who at some point may have "ordered the colonies and therefore colonists to be disarmed".
FROM: Wikipedia Encyclopedia....
When Great Britain began to crack down on the illegal activities performed by the colonists, the colonists formed militias and seized control of each colony, ousting the royal governors. The complaint was never officially over the amount of taxation (although it was somewhat high), but always on the decision-making process by which taxes were decided in London, without representation for the colonists in British Parliament.
The phrase "No Taxation Without Representation!" was coined by Reverend Jonathan Mayhew in a sermon in Boston in 1750. By 1765 the term "no taxation without representation" was in use in Boston, but no one is sure who first used it. Boston politician James Otis was most famously associated with the term, "taxation without representation is tyranny!"
The colonists complained that taxes were imposed by Parliament without the consent of the colonists, which violated the traditional rights of Englishmen dating back from the ‘Magna Carta’. The point was that the colonies had no representation in Parliament; the British responded that they were "virtually" represented. The Americans said these "virtual representatives" knew nothing about America.
By the 1760s the Americans came to believe they were being deprived of a historic right.
The British could not accept this illegal act because it would undermine the authority of the British throne. In Britain representation was highly limited; only 3% of the men could vote and they were controlled by local gentry. Therefore the British Government argued that the colonists had ‘virtual representation in their interests.
In English "no taxation without representation" was an old principle and meant that Parliament had to pass all taxes. At first the "representation" was held to be one of land, but by 1700 this had shifted to the notion that in Parliament all British subjects had a "virtual representation." "We virtually and implicitly allow the institutions of any government of which we enjoy the benefit and solicit the protection," declared Samuel Jackson in his political pamphlet Taxation No Tyranny. He rejected the plea that the colonists, who had no vote, were unrepresented. "They are represented," he said, "by the same virtual representation as the greater part of England." ~~~
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Tue, 01 April 2008 16:18 |
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I'd go along with this part:
"The dispute is partly semantic: to some readers the term is a value-free geographic one"
People get too hung up on national identity, the intransigence of which conflicts with the realities of existence - which is all about change and development.
Why do we attach so much importance to nationality?
Blood? Most of us will find we're a fairly mixed bunch with ancestors from all over the place (generally considered a good thing genetically).
Location? Purely down to chance, and I'd rather associate with someone because I have interests in common with them than because we happen to come from the same place.
Tradition? People tend to pick and choose which traditions they identify with.
Politics? The British government no more represents my beliefs than it does those of a resident of The Republic of Ireland (for example)
Religion? Clearly not, since that is an area that has never united any population.
Sport? Our premier football clubs are managed and manned primarily by foreigners, arguably the best current English cricketer is South African, our 2nd best tennis player over the last decade was Canadian. The most successful Republic of Ireland football team in recent years was famously full of people with dubious links to the country. We have English, Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish football teams, and a GB Olympic team. Go figure.
What does nationalism all too frequently bring us?
Conflict.
Prejudice and bigotry.
Blind acceptance of the status quo (that's the way we do things here!)
Grandoise conceits.
Leverage that governments use to manipulate the population.
And worst of all, inane bumper stickers (like "these colours don't run" next to the Stars and Stripes) 
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Tue, 01 April 2008 17:34 |
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Happy or not,it's a fact.
The British Isles is a geographical term referring to the two islands ie:Great Britain and Ireland
The UK is a political term ie:The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Not all that enamoured with Dan's quote"currently six of the counties of Ulster" are part of the UK,dream on,are you trying to wind us up or what.
Mr Ulstercouple(a British citizen)
[Updated on: Tue, 01 April 2008 17:36]
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 19:30 |
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| Quote |
The Republic of Ireland (Southern Ireland) is part of the British Isles geographically, but is a completely self-administering
state.
Melmoth
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AAAARrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! 
I hate HATE HATE that term. 
It's "Ireland" or the "Rep of Ireland". None of this "Southern Ireland" malarkey.
It drives me bananas and is one of the unfortunate irksome consequences of living in the UK. That, and the wretched attempt at an Irish accent (that is thankfully a dying "effort" at humour) or the silly Riverdance piss-take (I'm no fan of it, but jumping up and down and twirling your legs has been done to death. Honestly, it has.)
Not having a particular poke at Melmoth here - just an observation in general.
(Where the hell did it originate ?????)
TC
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 19:36 |
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| Dan wrote on Mon, 31 March 2008 13:44 |
There are separate sports teams for England, Scotland, Wales, Northern and Southern Ireland for almost all sports.
Dan
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AAAARRRRRRrrrghhhh!!!!
Again!
Oh woe is me today!
People... please, it's NOT "Southern Ireland".
By the way, the Rep of Ireland has nothing to do with the term "British" apart from the geographiacl reference to the British Isles. The UK is our good neighbour and we share a lot in life despite different cultural and national identities.
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 19:45 |
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| Quote |
Happy or not,it's a fact.
The British Isles is a geographical term referring to the two islands ie:Great Britain and Ireland
The UK is a political term ie:The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Not all that enamoured with Dan's quote"currently six of the counties of Ulster" are part of the UK,dream on,are you trying to wind us up or what.
Mr Ulstercouple(a British citizen)
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That Wikipedia article was an interesting read. I have decided, in accordance with the Irish Government and its wonderful policy... which has opened my eyes... to drop my acceptance of the geographical notation of The British Isles.
Yup.
After all, it's not as if regions cannot change to suit current thinking.... Zimbabwe, or perhaps St Petersburg.
 
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 19:58 |
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| TheRealStrappon wrote on Wed, 02 April 2008 19:30 |
| Quote |
The Republic of Ireland (Southern Ireland) is part of the British Isles geographically, but is a completely self-administering
state.
Melmoth
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AAAARrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!
I hate HATE HATE that term.
It's "Ireland" or the "Rep of Ireland". None of this "Southern Ireland" malarkey.
Not having a particular poke at Melmoth here - just an observation in general.
(Where the hell did it originate ?????)
TC
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I'm guessing it stemmed from the fact that we have "Northern Ireland". I never refer to it as Southern Ireland in conversation, always The Republic...
Was just trying to clarify for anyone who might not be familiar with the official names for our confusing little nest of nations by using a geographical reference.
Just out of interest, why does it irk you so? As mentioned in my earlier post, I have no particular sense of national pride. You could refer to England as "that bit of land attached to the @rse end of Scotland" for all I care. 
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 20:03 |
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I live in England. Have done for 20 years. Never felt the need to live in an Irish community or anything like that... just get on with life, integrate and do yer best in life.
My wife is English, my employers are English and all my friends are English (as well as non-English).
Etc etc etc. You get the drift.
However, there are just a few quirks of Englishness that drive me bananas. One of them is refering to Ireland as "Southern Ireland". Why the need for clarification? Everyone knows of Northern Ireland. But it invokes divisions that do not exist in the same way as "North Korea" and "South Korea" (not their proper names I know - just keeping in terms with the point I am trying to make).
That, and the growing use of "We was" and "I was sat".
<shakes head>
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 20:04 |
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The British Isles .......
If the larger of the 2 Islands, the one that comprises of England, Scotland and Wales, is known and accepted as ' Great Britain ' ... then surely the other one must be ...
' Little Britain ' ( puts on best Tom Baker voice  )
Good Pye .....
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 20:15 |
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| TheRealStrappon wrote on Wed, 02 April 2008 20:03 |
Why the need for clarification?
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I was trying not to make assumptions. For example, to people living in America, the difference between South America and Central America is probably obvious. But to many others outside that continent it is not.
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 20:23 |
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| Ulster couple wrote on Tue, 01 April 2008 17:34 |
Not all that enamoured with Dan's quote"currently six of the counties of Ulster" are part of the UK,dream on,are you trying to wind us up or what.
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Pardon my ignorance, but how is that a wind up?
Dave.
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 20:26 |
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| TheRealStrappon wrote on Wed, 02 April 2008 19:30 |
| Quote |
The Republic of Ireland (Southern Ireland) is part of the British Isles geographically, but is a completely self-administering
state.
Melmoth
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AAAARrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!
I hate HATE HATE that term.
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Could have been worse, could have said the "Free State"
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 20:55 |
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| melmoth wrote on Wed, 02 April 2008 20:15 |
| TheRealStrappon wrote on Wed, 02 April 2008 20:03 |
Why the need for clarification?
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I was trying not to make assumptions. For example, to people living in America, the difference between South America and Central America is probably obvious. But to many others outside that continent it is not.
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Nae bother buddy. (In keeping with a theme identified elsewhere - <puts on best accent from yer man in Braveheart - the Irish guy>) I feel it a duty to enlighten the world of the virtues of the wee island and its people, thus adorning them with the names worthy of such a magical place.
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 21:00 |
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| Dave Magill wrote on Wed, 02 April 2008 20:23 |
| Ulster couple wrote on Tue, 01 April 2008 17:34 |
Not all that enamoured with Dan's quote"currently six of the counties of Ulster" are part of the UK,dream on,are you trying to wind us up or what.
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Pardon my ignorance, but how is that a wind up?
Dave.
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Maybe it's just our Unionist "siege mentality" Dave,but we took it to mean that you may be part of the UK now ,but not for much longer.The "currently" part was what got our backs up.
"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you".
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 21:12 |
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This could turn into a 10-pager
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 21:28 |
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| TheRealStrappon wrote on Wed, 02 April 2008 21:12 |
This could turn into a 10-pager
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And everyone reading will blame "the bloody Irish"for bringing their petty squables here  .
Ten pages seems light,we've been arguing over identities in these islands for hundreds of years.We vote that we all become "citizens of SHQ" ,at least that is something we all share.
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 21:39 |
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Unless it is followed with "if this was you, or you are reading this, thank you for making my day".
(wrt candid stocking sightings)
...Jaysus.
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 22:05 |
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I want to join in now.(IMHO)
Great Britain is a geographical term for the island that comprises England, Wales and Scotland. Lesser Britain is the Brittany peninsular.
Northern Ireland is not Ulster
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 22:10 |
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| Ulster couple wrote on Wed, 02 April 2008 21:28 |
| TheRealStrappon wrote on Wed, 02 April 2008 21:12 |
This could turn into a 10-pager
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And everyone reading will blame "the bloody Irish"for bringing their petty squables here .
Ten pages seems light,we've been arguing over identities in these islands for hundreds of years.We vote that we all become "citizens of SHQ" ,at least that is something we all share.
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Anyways, you're "British", remember?
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Wed, 02 April 2008 23:54 |
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| Ulster couple wrote on Wed, 02 April 2008 21:00 |
| Dave Magill wrote on Wed, 02 April 2008 20:23 |
| Ulster couple wrote on Tue, 01 April 2008 17:34 |
Not all that enamoured with Dan's quote"currently six of the counties of Ulster" are part of the UK,dream on,are you trying to wind us up or what.
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Pardon my ignorance, but how is that a wind up?
Dave.
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Maybe it's just our Unionist "siege mentality" Dave,but we took it to mean that you may be part of the UK now ,but not for much longer.The "currently" part was what got our backs up.
"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you".
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Ah I see. Well I wouldn't worry about that too much, because much as the English don't want N.I., the Irish want it even less.
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Thu, 03 April 2008 00:02 |
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True Dave,it's reckoned George Harrison sang Nobodies Child especially for us
Seriously though things are looking up over here now.
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Thu, 03 April 2008 10:59 |
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Dave
[/quote]
Not all that enamoured with Dan's quote"currently six of the counties of Ulster" are part of the UK,dream on,are you trying to wind us up or what.
Mr Ulstercouple(a British citizen)
[/quote]
No, no.
I meant that six currently are, as opposed to the nine counties of Ulster that used to be part of the UK, along with the rest.
Dan
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Thu, 03 April 2008 23:20 |
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Sir Dworkin's request for specific detail about the UK was one that I, an naive Irish-Scott American, had hoped to learn from. What I've learned is that regional conflicts in the UK appear to resemble those that were common in the US prior to air wide-spread use of conditioning technology.
doo dah
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Fri, 04 April 2008 09:11 |
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| stephen_foster wrote on Thu, 03 April 2008 23:20 |
Sir Dworkin's request for specific detail about the UK was one that I, an naive Irish-Scott American, had hoped to learn from. What I've learned is that regional conflicts in the UK appear to resemble those that were common in the US prior to air wide-spread use of conditioning technology.
doo dah
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if that's true then there's no hope for us as our climate just doesn't warrant air conditioning 
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| Re: Request for Proper (British) Addressment |
Sat, 17 May 2008 03:34 |
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Greetings there Folks.
First, a apology for the delay in my response. Time has been at premium and I have not the luxury of access to cyber units when not at home, and I have not been there much of late.
Also many, many Thanks to all that helped and responded, both on and off the grid to my original request. I was working on an essay/commentary concerning personal freedoms and 2nd. Amendment rights (in the USA) and cared to get the terms right. That pretty much fell aside for now and another part was I have been asked again to consider running for a public office. I consider the chances of meeting Morgan Fairchild, the Pope, the Queen (should that be The, with a capital?) or winning the lotto much greater as I equate politics with anal bodily waste.
To address a couple of side questions, as best memory will allow: as Grandad and a couple of others pointed out in previous posts, part of the USA American revolution revolved around the fact that the King of England and Parliament were the top 2% of landowners (and everything else) in England, basically controlled everything and did not want to loose that control which led to the King's declaration that the colonists be disarmed. The American revolution was not supported unanimously as is a common belief. New York City for instance was not at all sympathetic and was even then a huge city. The mere fact that the revolution succeeded was pure fortune. Mis management, funding, poor politics, internal discord, regional conflict were all big players. To the many, particularly where firearms are restricted, those many consider them to be unnecessary. However, much of the "new world" was in the wilderness and a long gun was needed for among other things, food and an increasingly hostile set of displaced Native Americans, more then a little upset about being displaced.
There are innumerable reasons which could make volumes and I'll leave off at that. One of the posts from a previous time made note that the winners always write or rewrite History to serve the victors. So such the case here and so the tainted teachings in schools and the like, including myself to which I was exposed.
More apology for not making this as edited as I would like. I had a small window and I'm back out on another mission soon so I could not play with this to my liking. I do again wish to extend my Thanks for all the dialogue and input from everyone. Someday, when I win that lotto, I'll buy all a drink of their liking.
Until then, keep the spirit at SHQ alive!
Fine Regards,
Dworkin
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