| Where Have All the Flowers Gone? |
Wed, 09 April 2008 13:07  |
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Recently, I extended an employment offer to a female intern in my department that graduates from an outstanding USA university engineering school in May. The financial offer was exceptional and I was surprised when she declined.
She said the professional attire culture at my employer was not to her liking. This very fit and attractive young lady expressed frustration with "attire culture" and railed about how out of touch the leaders of our company "must be".
Since this feminine young lady declined the employment offer, I have been more aware of the attire of other young ladies. It appears to me that less than five percent of ladies under 30 wear sheer hosiery in my home city.
My residence is south of the Mason-Dixon Line located in middle America, USA. Dress mores here are more conservative than on each of the USA coasts, but obviously what I see at work, and when out with my wife, is outside of current norms.
Where have all the "flowers" gone? Is it true that only women over 40 wear sheer hosiery in the USA? What are the attire norms in the UK and throughout Europe?
doo dah
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| Re: Where Have All the Flowers Gone? |
Wed, 09 April 2008 14:42  |
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Although it may mean less stockings, I agree with the attitude of your applicant (though I wouldn't personally give up a good job for the principle).
Financial Services IT in London was pretty much 'suited and booted' for men (a little less strict for women). Some people claim a suit creates a more professional working atmosphere in the office. What
utter rubbish! Unless you're client-facing, different clothes suit different jobs - and different people. People who can afford tailor-made suits generally look good (unless their job requires them to crawl under desks fixing things) - but for everyone else,
an off-the-shelf suit looks no better or worse than dozens of other options. Even jeans (shock horror!!)
Dress codes are indeed an outdated form of arbitrary paternalistic nonsense.
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| Re: Where Have All the Flowers Gone? |
Wed, 09 April 2008 16:59 |
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If it looks like a Rebel; sounds like a Rebel; reads like a Rebel, and smells like a Rebel...it probably is a Rebel. 
Welcome back, you ol’ Rebel you!  You were a forum 'Flower', so to speak, so pray tell... where've you been hidin' out??? 
..... [ if not Rebel, then I extend my sincere apologies  ] 
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| Re: Where Have All the Flowers Gone? |
Wed, 09 April 2008 20:27 |
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Who is a Rebel? What does one look, sound, read, and smell like? Am I back to the future without knowing about something?
doo dah
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| Re: Where Have All the Flowers Gone? |
Thu, 10 April 2008 00:48 |
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"To whom thy secret thou dost tell ... To him thy freedom thou dost sell." —— R. Saunders; 'Poor Richard'
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| Re: Where Have All the Flowers Gone? |
Sun, 13 April 2008 00:38 |
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Sorry guys but i enforce a strict policy at my company of men wearing suits
I would not allow my engineers to go to a client looking anything but buisness like
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| Re: Where Have All the Flowers Gone? |
Sun, 13 April 2008 12:18 |
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why doesn't that surprise me?
The curse of the modern business world is people have to be seen to be professional - whether they actually ARE professional or not rarely seems to matter.
A professional technician, for example, is paid to think (in order to sort out problems), yet is not trusted enough to decide on the most appropriate attire for the job.
Besides, professionalism comes from the person, not the quality of their cloth.
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| Re: Where Have All the Flowers Gone? |
Tue, 15 April 2008 13:40 |
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Each of us owns a personal perspective.
About every 10 years an author has published a book here in the States titled, Dress for Success. The author surveys hundreds of people of both sexes to determine the patterns of dress that project prosperity, character, and respect.
Men attired in suits, white shirts, and conservative ties have continuously been selected by the public at random as more properuous, trust worthy and respected - even in the 21st Century.
A non-profit charity in the States that goes by the name of Dress for Success counsels poor women seeking employment. This organizations provides its needy clients no-fee interviewing training and business suits. They strongly reccomend that their clients wear sheer hosiery, and court shoes.
In interviews after the women reurned to work, the universal perspective expressed was that professional attire provided badly-needed confidence during the interviewing process and helped the newly-working women find much-needed self confidence once they started work.
doo dah
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| Re: Where Have All the Flowers Gone? |
Tue, 15 April 2008 18:39 |
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I only trust engineers in overalls .. not in 3 piece suits
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| Re: Where Have All the Flowers Gone? |
Thu, 17 April 2008 12:34 |
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Good point Dirk !
I trust women in suits even less.
The amount of 'account managers' i have had over the years that are women who turn up in a trouser suit and a mobile phone and the only thing on their mind is to try and sell you something, not support you or listen to what your business actually needs is beyond belief.
And as for the ones that only last a couple of months before leaving and then contacting you out of the blue from some other 'new name / same old thing' company for a chat and to see if theres anything they can do for you...(whatever happened to securing customer databases ?)
Give me an engineer who knows about how things work and how to fix them when they dont anyday.
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| Re: Where Have All the Flowers Gone? |
Thu, 17 April 2008 19:19 |
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Replies from richandpaula, Dirk, and melmoth show that my expectations are outside of mainstream perspectives. Thank you very much for sharing your views.
The company I lead is a non-profit that integrates educational and information processing technologies to impact reading, math, and writing skills of disadvantaged children. Our clients are non-profit organizations that provide foster care, community services, and educational services to disadvantaged youths.
The results we produce enable students to close their educational skills gaps in just 1/5 - 1/8 the time of US public schools. We produce these results at 1/20 the cost per academic year of US public schools. The life-changing experiences we generate result in tremendous academic and self image growth in the young people we serve.
Our operations are funded by foundations and individuals of significant wealth. Our offices are located inside the property owned by our largest funder - a very successful lawyer. Our success attracts the attention of wealthy people that dress conservatively - and have given to us generously.
Engineers at our business evaluate the needs of the non-profits we support, design custom solutions to the needs of clients, and present these solutions to our funders. Elected officials and community leaders often visit our offices unannounced.
Our attire culture is in deference to the stakeholders that fund our activities. Your feedback tells me our cause and funding realities may not justify my expectation to attract younger professionals with competitive compensation.
doo dah
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| Re: Where Have All the Flowers Gone? |
Fri, 18 April 2008 11:49 |
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| stephen_foster wrote on Thu, 17 April 2008 19:19 |
Our attire culture is in deference to the stakeholders that fund our activities. Your feedback tells me our cause and funding realities may not justify my expectation to attract younger professionals with competitive compensation.
doo dah
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Your company sounds like it is providing a very worthwhile service - it must be satisfying to do something that genuinely benefits people!
I disagree with your final statement; as stated before, I don't personally determine whether a job is worth accepting based on its dress-code. In fact you might argue that those who do reject your vacancy based on that criterion were not sufficiently interested in the first place - you're effectively weeding out those whose priorities are spurious, which is probably a good thing.
I just find it sad that in the 21st century people (in your case, stakeholders) still judge by appearances (unless it's directly relevant to their business).
As a more light-hearted aside, I would have thought politicians had effectively undermined the idea that we trust in the professionalism and integrity of anyone wearing a suit...
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| Re: Where Have All the Flowers Gone? |
Fri, 18 April 2008 14:23 |
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I'm a bit of a contradiction when it comes to this issue, though my perspective comes from a different angle.
Our uniform policy at work has been resurrected by our new big wigs. It is so prescriptive, patronising and irritating that i'm determined to undermine it in every little way possible and i'm not particularly concerned about the consequences. It highlights tiny pointless details i'm sure no one cares about, sock colour, hair clip style, the type of glasses we are expected to wear. As far as i'm concerned if i'm paying for these items i'm choosing exactly what they look like. I've never once had a relative or patient comment on my hair bobbles negatively, they have significantly more important things to think about.
A rep came to show us some new products the other day, he was wearing a round necked sweatshirt and jeans. I thought he looked really unprofessional and very young. A shirt would have been a good start and a suit and tie even better. I decided to find other things to do rather than sit through his product pushing.
Hypocritical? Maybe.
x
tabi
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| Re: Where Have All the Flowers Gone? |
Fri, 18 April 2008 15:20 |
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As a non-profit that exists ONLY because our donors trust our stewardship of their money, our employees acknowledge when they accept employment that the goals of "serving" supercede their personal preferences and egos.
Many of the children that recieve our services have been active gang participants. They often "represent" their gang by wearing pants 10 sizes too large and exposing their underwear with pants belted below their buttocks.
Gangs dress in specific attire because they judge themselves by outward appearances. Our teachers wear ties and oxford cloth shirts. It's interesting to see how fast kids with criminal backgrounds extend respect and build trusting relationships with teachers that dress so different from them.
Even at SHQ, members achieve status by what they wear. The outfits and sightings forum attracts many times more visitors than the discussion forums generate. Ladies with attractive legs - and sporting full-fashioned 100 percent nylon hosiery - get more positive feedback and attract more "hits" on their postings than posters not meeting defacto standards.
An argument can be easily made that the real purpose of SHQ is to influence the wearing of elegant clothes that includes traditional sheer hosiery.
The emotional compensation of participating in life-changing transformations of disadvantaged kids is overwhelmingly rewarding. I can't tell you the number of hardened gang members that I've held in my arms as they sobbed tears of thanks for changing their lives.
I have no problem admitting that rarely a day passes that I don't stain the carpets of our offices with tears because one of our kids came in with a story of a new success in his/her life.
I do have a problem with accepting the honesty of an intern that said she wanted to "make a meaningful impact in peoples' lives", and then accepted a salary-matching employment offer from a defense contractor because "the dress culture is out of touch".
Thank you so much for sharing with me your perspectives. Diversity of cultures and diversity of intellectual perspectives attracted me to SHQ.
doo dah
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| Re: Where Have All the Flowers Gone? |
Sun, 20 April 2008 23:51 |
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I know I couldn't cope with a uniform. I won't take out my piercings for job interviews. Maybe I will change the jewellery to a smaller sized stud, but I'm not removing it. I wouldn't be happy taking a job where I needed to wear sleeves all seasons to cover tattoos. Dress codes should be a bit more advisory than some seem, not dictating. Wearing a shirt and trousers should be smart enough for most jobs. A tie if you're important. I agree that what you wear should fit your job. A green hairslide will not hinder your work.
Now school uniforms.....
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