| Who would you vote for.... |
Fri, 09 May 2008 22:22  |
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...if there was a general election tomorrow?
Firstly we should be aware there may never be another general election in the UK. If you think about it, as Britain will be run from Brussels, there will be no need for a UK based government. Remember, Ken Clarke actually said he looked forward to the day when parliament is just a mere council chamber within Europe.
For the record, I'd never vote for ZanPFLabour or the CONservatives. The LibDems are just as bad too. That leaves me with an independent guy and the BNP. I'd vote for the independent. I have no problem with the BNP but I don't like party politics.
How about you?
[Updated on: Fri, 09 May 2008 22:22]
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sat, 10 May 2008 09:41  |
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Like Dirk, I don't see an awful lot of options about right now, although the Lib Dems are probably closest to my beliefs - however they need to prove that they can communicate effectively to the population - and I don't mean doing interviews in glorified jazz-mags.
"Have no problem with the BNP"? I find that somewhat alarming.
I support their right to stand and speak, since we have free speech - but I certainly do have a problem with their politics - the politics of fear & blame the immigrant for the problems of this country.
Whether we like it or not (and I DO like it) we are a multi-cultural country. We should be proud of that and not seek to scapegoat those who think there's something here worth coming for.
This country has many problems - but the trick is to search for solutions, not point fingers.
Picking on people who are a little bit different, who don't just blend into the crowd & pinning the blame on them - it's called prejudice, and whether it's aimed at ethnic groups, religious groups, sexual orientations, or just people who look a bit different, it comes down to the same thing - ignorance.
Do we want the politics of ignorance to run this country?
Sorry to come on strong, but I get concerned when far right reactionaries like the BNP start becoming acceptable.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sat, 10 May 2008 11:25 |
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I myself ,have always and will continue to vote Conservative, I dont like what Labour has done in their last eleven years, as far as the BNP goes i dont think they will ever be big enough or well supported enough to ever be taken seriouusly. However i do feel that bad press about them is completely wrong, after all it is about politics and that is all about opinion and if that is their views then who is anyone to disagree with them.
The Lib Dems have never in my eyes exspressed a strong opinion on anything major and they just seem to float along with whatever is in favour at the current time.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sat, 10 May 2008 11:34 |
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| andysffs wrote on Sat, 10 May 2008 11:25 |
as far as the BNP goes i dont think they will ever be big enough or well supported enough to ever be taken seriouusly. However i do feel that bad press about them is completely wrong, after all it is about politics and that is all about opinion and if that is their views then who is anyone to disagree with them.
The Lib Dems have never in my eyes exspressed a strong opinion on anything major and they just seem to float along with whatever is in favour at the current time.
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andysffs, I think you are contradicting yourself. You say that the BNP just suffer from bad press, but then say the Lib Dems have never had any strong policies. That is not the case - they have put forward a number of strong and radically different ideas over the years, but it is the press that portrays them as the 'sitting on the fence' party.
Yes, politics is about ideas and opinions & we are free to discuss them. However, I would be alarmed to see fascism (or anything similar to it) on the rise in the UK again - it can bring no good to anyone.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sat, 10 May 2008 11:35 |
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In your opinion that is
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sat, 10 May 2008 12:09 |
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do you think fascism has something positive to bring to this country then?
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sat, 10 May 2008 12:19 |
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No i am mearly saying that the Bnp opinion must be respected, let us not forget that they do get votes in most elections, thereafore a certain percentage of the Uk population wants that party to be in power, so as such deserve a right to exspess their and their supporters opinions.
As stated before a vote Conservative and always will.
I have always thought though that a far simpler way to do it would be for every party to stand and obtain votes and get seats by percentage of national not local votes and then run as a multi party power with every voters wishes or opinions being represented by the government.
this could be carried out every 12 months.
That way you would get genuine representation.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sat, 10 May 2008 12:32 |
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| andysffs wrote on Sat, 10 May 2008 12:19 |
No i am mearly saying that the Bnp opinion must be respected, let us not forget that they do get votes in most elections, thereafore a certain percentage of the Uk population wants that party to be in power, so as such deserve a right to exspess their and their supporters opinions.
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I wouldn't deny them that right. However I cannot respect their opinions/ideas.
| andysffs wrote on Sat, 10 May 2008 12:19 |
I have always thought though that a far simpler way to do it would be for every party to stand and obtain votes and get seats by percentage of national not local votes and then run as a multi party power with every voters wishes or opinions being represented by the government.
this could be carried out every 12 months.
That way you would get genuine representation.
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almost sounds like PR - a Lib Dem policy 
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sat, 10 May 2008 14:55 |
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| andysffs wrote on Sat, 10 May 2008 11:25 |
as far as the BNP goes i dont think they will ever be big enough or well supported enough to ever be taken seriouusly. However i do feel that bad press about them is completely wrong
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Why does that not surprise me?
After the word ' seriously ' ....did you forget to put the word ' unfortunately ...' ??
 
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sat, 10 May 2008 16:37 |
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No dirk i suggest you learn to read posts properly before jumping in and commenting on them to try and elevate your position amongst the other members.
If you bother to read my posts fully you will see that i am in fact a tory and that is where my vote goes.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sun, 11 May 2008 09:13 |
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Thank you for your replies.
Melmoth, you asked "do you think fascism has something positive to bring to this country then".
Do you not think we already have a fascist government?
Andysffs, you said you don't like what Labour has done in the past 11 years and that you will always vote Conservative. In your opinion, what is the fundamental difference between the two?
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sun, 11 May 2008 09:22 |
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Get rid of Brown for David Milliband and get a young cabinet instead of all these old hasbeens lol
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sun, 11 May 2008 09:26 |
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Miliband is a part of the problem right now. What makes you think he could ever be a part of the solution?
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sun, 11 May 2008 12:24 |
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| cestrian wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 09:13 |
Melmoth, you asked "do you think fascism has something positive to bring to this country then".
Do you not think we already have a fascist government?
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No, there is a difference between 'dictatorial' and 'fascist'.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sun, 11 May 2008 13:00 |
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Grannies, eggs, suck...
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sun, 11 May 2008 13:07 |
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I believe dictatoral is a very fair description of our current goverment, i mean how many important policy changes have they made without consultation.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sun, 11 May 2008 13:09 |
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Dirk, you said "Guess I'm hoping that there's an Independant standing in my constituency then .. what would be interesting would be for enough Indie candidates to win the majority of seats in Parliament
They could not do any worse than this shower, who must be causing long-gone true Socialist politicians to turn in their graves" and I chuckled.
Many many years ago, party politics did not exist, just commoners (two from each county) meeting in the house of the commoners (House of Commons). Representing their constituents and making decisions without the aid of three line party whips.
Would you like to see a return to a similar system with indepenent politicians making common sense decisions?
[Updated on: Sun, 11 May 2008 13:09]
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sun, 11 May 2008 13:10 |
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Think it would offer far greater representation of the people, after all that is what it is designed for.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sun, 11 May 2008 13:11 |
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andysffs, I agree that the present government are dictatorial, but having looked closely at fascism, I also believe they are at least bordering on that too.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sun, 11 May 2008 13:16 |
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So how about an indepenent alliance whereby all the independents can remain independent, but could use a logo to demonstrate to the voting public that they are the people to vote for if they want true representation?
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sun, 11 May 2008 13:17 |
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You may well be correct on that one, i sure did not vote for them.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sun, 11 May 2008 18:57 |
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I'd rather not vote for a bunch of Nazis, thank you. My grandparents fought to ensure these people didn't rule Britain.
And I'm definitely NOT voting for a man who calls his pigs Anne and Frank! (as Nick Griffin does).
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sun, 11 May 2008 21:10 |
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Mich, you mentioned the Nazis. What have they got to do with it?
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Sun, 11 May 2008 23:09 |
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As far as I'm(vee) concerned they all SUCK. Not a one amongst them that has the necessary balls to take this country, shake it by it's tail, and sorting it out....So I guess I wouldn't be voting....but then maybe better the devil you know...right?
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 09:32 |
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| cestrian wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 13:00 |
Grannies, eggs, suck...
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you asked a question, I answered it.... 
why do you think New Labour are similar to the fascists? I don't see any similarities.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 09:43 |
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| Snapper wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 23:47 |
Incidentally, why does everyone get so upset about the BNP ? If they get enough votes to get into power - that is what the people want - Isn't that what it's all about ?
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Dangerous logic. The Nazis were voted in during the 30s. Mosley's fascists were also gaining popularity in this country. Do you really want to see a return to that?
Democracy is, at heart, a severely faulted system. Unfortunately it's the best we've come up with in recent times. Nevertheless, it should not be allowed to facilitate the politics of hatred.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 09:49 |
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| cestrian wrote on Sun, 11 May 2008 13:16 |
So how about an indepenent alliance whereby all the independents can remain independent, but could use a logo to demonstrate to the voting public that they are the people to vote for if they want true representation?
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Then what happens when they all disagree on certain issues? Stalemate.
The only way (in my view) to get genuine representation is to go to some derivation of anarchism - and that can probably only work on a small scale. Nationwide government will never be truly representative I fear.
What it could be is more answerable to the public rather than their corporate paymasters.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 10:53 |
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Melmoth, to answer your question, although I know I don't need to do this, so this is probably for the benefit of others.
A fascist government is characterised by many things including...
1. Fraudulent elections. Postal voting and verification that people have actually voted. In many areas, ballot boxes are now stored overnight and the boxes opened to verify that people have voted.
2. Cronyism and corruption. Appointment of friends to top jobs, cash for honours etc.
3. Suppression of labour power. What did happen to the unions? They are now almost powerless and often funded by the corrupt government.
4. Protection of corporate power. Everyone else gets shafted and houses repossessed but the banks get bailed out.
5. Control of mass media. Just before he left office, Tony Blair admitted he had controlled the media far too much.
6. Disdain for the recognition of human rights. We can't venture outside without being watched on CCTV. Plans for ISA devices will mean we are tracked whenever we drive our cars. When cash is phased out, every penny we spend will be recorded on computer. Do we not have the right to wander wherever we please, spend hard-earned money on whatever we want and even break the speed limit momentarily on deserted roads? Tony Blair believes the government should be prepared to "intervene", "pre-birth" to deal with the disfunctional families  Work it out for yourself.
I wont rant but I do believe the government is at least bordering on being a fasist government.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 10:58 |
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Melmoth you asked "Then what happens when they all disagree on certain issues? Stalemate"..
Well if they all disagree on an issue, so what?.
For instance, if the Prime Minister puts forward an idea for all pregnant women in disfunctional families (similar to Tony Blairs idea) to be forced to undergo a termination/abortion, and everyone but his front benchers vote against his idea, what's the problem with that? Sounds more like common sense, not a stalemate.
Regards
[Updated on: Mon, 12 May 2008 11:02]
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 11:36 |
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Thanks for taking the time to reply cestrian.
To me fascism means a government that is extremely right-wing, certainly anti-communist, authoritarian (ok, Labour qualify there) and dangerously prejudicial toward ethnic,religious & lifestyle minorities that it perceives to be 'undesirable'.
To take on your points individually:
1. Fraudulent elections. Bush II is guilty of this, as are all of the main 3 parties in the UK - they've all had their wrists slapped in recent years.
2. Cronyism and corruption. Again, Bush II and the Tories are just as guilty of this.
3. Suppression of labour power. What did happen to the unions? Thatcher destroyed them, to (misguided) popular acclaim. This has been supported by the media which almost universally paints those few unions that are still active as the villains of every dispute.
4. Protection of corporate power. Tell me the Tories wouldn't do that too....
5. Control of mass media. Again, at the risk of becoming repetative, the Tories did this too. Look at the history of reporting in the Falklands War for example (where it actually backfired on them to a degree).
6. Disdain for the recognition of human rights. I agree that much of this is most alarming & is one of the reasons I no longer vote Labour. Due to the technical nature of much of this survailance only time will tell if the Tories will revoke any of this, since we didn't have much of the technology when they were last in power. Maybe we'll find out in 2 years time...
You are quite right to say that the above points characterise fascist governments, but I think they also characterise
the larger set of 'corrupt governments' - so do not define a government as fascist, just corrupt.
Unfortunately, I also think corruption is harder to tackle than fascism. The latter is an extreme reactionary force that can only feed on a frightened and ignorant population. Hopefully the memory of 20th century fascism will abide long enough to ensure that such people remain a minority for some time to come.
Corruption, on the other hand, is endemic in our lives. It's not just politics it has infiltrated - it's the corporate world, public services (police especially), sport... you name it...
I admit to throwing my hands up in despair at how to tackle this problem - I often feel honest folk are outnumbered or at
least out-gunned.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 12:14 |
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Nice conversation, thanks.
About your comment "dangerously prejudicial toward ethnic,religious & lifestyle minorities that it perceives to be 'undesirable'".
Like many others, I feel that our government show prejudice toward the indigenous people of this land. Our children are being taught that black is better in the books featuring a girl called Neela. I would prefer extra maths and English lessons actually but if the school must teach them anything about racial matters, it should be about equality.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 14:42 |
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Almost everyone in this country will have a father, grandfather or uncle who died fighting to overthrow the fascists in the last war. The BNP are a direct insult to the memory of those who died, and anyone voting for them should hang their heads in shame.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 16:01 |
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gripper, would you deny the BNP (or similar) a platform? Should they be suppressed?
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 16:05 |
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I personnally would not deny any party standing whatever their views.
If they get voted in then obviously its what the majority of country wants.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 16:11 |
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Believe it or not andy, I dislike a system where 49% (or less) of the voters are not represented, some poeple call it democracy, I call it mob rule.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 16:12 |
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Its not ideal i know, how would you change the system?
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 16:17 |
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It's almost too late to change it. There may never be another general election but if there was, Britain desperately needs an independent government, or at least a government where there are no party whips, just humans making decisions based on common sense.
In the mean time, political parties need to be scrapped in favour of the old system. MP's should be accountable to the public.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 16:19 |
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You dont think we will have another general election?
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 16:22 |
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| andysffs wrote on Mon, 12 May 2008 16:05 |
If they get voted in then obviously its what the majority of country wants.
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I know you lean to the right andysffs, but I can't believe you really mean that. Is this a wind-up?
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 16:25 |
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No i believe in the system, whatever party gets the most votes regardless of their opinions gets to form the government
And quite rightly so as the majority of the country will have voted to put them there
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 16:35 |
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andy, is it fair that the minority are not represented?
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 16:37 |
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No not really but thats the way the system currently is
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Mon, 12 May 2008 16:38 |
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Be careful what you wish for. People can be manipulated by those cleverer than they, and not everyone has a strongly developed sense of ethics.
Did you know that 1/3 of male US college students said they would consider raping someone if they thought they could get away with it. A third. And that's a (theoretically) well-educated population.
Have you ever read any of the Marquis de Sade's novels? His protagonists frequently use the idea of cultural relativity to justify their atrocious crimes. And they make a convincing 'populist' argument. I know it's not the same as what we're debating here, but it is relevant in terms of whether you think humans have a duty to endeavour to be civilised and tolerant towards each other or whether they should just be ruled by self-interest (enlightened or otherwise).
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Tue, 13 May 2008 09:38 |
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"...would you deny the BNP (or similar) a platform? Should they be suppressed?"
In a word, yes.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Tue, 13 May 2008 10:12 |
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| gripper wrote on Tue, 13 May 2008 09:38 |
"...would you deny the BNP (or similar) a platform? Should they be suppressed?"
In a word, yes.
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I don't agree with 'no platform' policies. If we have freedom of speech, it needs to be for all. If we don't want freedom of speech, then that's a different matter entirely (and a much more dangerous precedent).
What we should do is make sure everyone is educated to the degree that they realise exactly what the BNP are.
The very existence of the BNP should put even more onus on the other political parties to serve the people of this country effectively. It is their failure when BNP candidates are elected.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Tue, 13 May 2008 10:43 |
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Gripper, help me out here, you appear to hate fascists, but you are happy to suppress free speech. Amazing!
Can anyone else see the irony in that?
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Tue, 13 May 2008 12:18 |
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No, I’m not at all happy to suppress free speech, but I am in favor of legislation that limits certain types of speech, such as incitement to racial hatred, or incitement to violence.
I’ve known people that are members of the BNP, I’ve read about them, seen documentaries on TV, as I’m sure many of us have, and I think they are very dangerous indeed. They are headed by some intelligent people who know how to manipulate their public image to make them sound reasonable, well thought through. The bulk of their membership are unmitigated racist thugs, and you know as well as I that they would like nothing better than another holocaust, but this time around they would include black people, Asians, and anyone else not conforming to the Aryan ideal as well as all the Jews, gays, gypsies and disabled.
Fascism is not a political movement, it’s a severe mental illness, and yes - I hate fascists.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Tue, 13 May 2008 21:07 |
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Gripper, I'm sorry but I can't follow your thought process. I wish not to be unpolite or insulting but your hatred of fascists and your wishes to suppress certain groups reeks of hypocrisy.
If you followed the news you would understand that incitement to racial hatred or violence are already dealt with in law.
If you were so familiar with the BNP you would know that over 80% of them are disaffected tories.
If you think the BNP wish to exterminate blacks, Jews, gays, gypsies and the disabled, then you really have been severely affected in by the years of brainwashing.
Regards
[Updated on: Tue, 13 May 2008 21:08]
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Tue, 13 May 2008 21:45 |
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| cestrian wrote on Tue, 13 May 2008 21:07 |
If you were so familiar with the BNP you would know that over 80% of them are disaffected tories.
Is that complete guess - in relation to the facts - supposed to make us feel better then, even if there was an ounce of truth in it?
If you think the BNP wish to exterminate blacks, Jews, gays, gypsies and the disabled, then you really have been severely affected in by the years of brainwashing.
Senior figures in the BNP Leadership have openly promoted anti-semitism, and have completely denied that The Holocaust ever took place; Highly placed BNP activists have openly declared their admiration for Adolf Hitler, and have close links with neo-nazi groups ( Combat 88 for instance, possibly named after a particular super-heavy WW2 German tank, of which only 88 were built ... )
So ... if any attempt at ' brainwashing ' is apparent, it's been perpetrated by the BNP themselves ....
But - if you can support such extremist thinking, then you may also have sympathy with organisations like Al-Qaeda ... After all , they're just extremists too, trying to exert their minority aspirations upon the majority ........ aren't they?
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[Updated on: Tue, 13 May 2008 21:50]
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Tue, 13 May 2008 22:41 |
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Dirk if you are gonna quote stuff get it right, its combat 18 not 88
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Tue, 13 May 2008 22:43 |
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It would appear that the party who posted the largest number of votes are not in government at the moment. I would also suspect that the current government are not over happy with the Scottish idea if independance. If that happens, then the government will fall apart, as most are from north of the border. Still can't figure out how MP's from this side of the border cannot vote on what happens in Scotland, but they can dictate what happens here. We need an English party to make sure we are not messed about again south of the borderany more.
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| Re: Who would you vote for.... |
Wed, 14 May 2008 06:56 |
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| andysffs wrote on Tue, 13 May 2008 22:41 |
Dirk if you are gonna quote stuff get it right, its combat 18 not 88
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Thank you - you're right. The figure 88 is an insignia worn by some neo-nazis apparently, | |
)
- Thanks